The Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor has for long been claimed to be the best air superiority fighter ever built, even before it was actually completed American officials said that with its stealth technology it would outperform any fighter that stood in its way without even being seen. But has this changed since its release in 1997?
https://youtu.be/CneqtCyA6zg
I would like to start by saying that the F-22 is a very capable fighter, but since its release in 1997, there has come new competitors to the world, very many generation 4.5 jets have been built by both the Russians, the US, France, and Germany. Therefore even though the Raptor is an extremely good fighter, every fighter has flaws that others can take advantage of, one fighter which is capable of using the F-22’s weakness is the German Eurofighter Typhoon. This is what I am going to debate in this article.
Properties of the German generation 4.5+
EUROFIGHTER DA 2 during flight trials in 1999 prior to acceptance. – Photo: Sgt Jack Pritchard, RAF/MOD
The EF Typhoon is a 4.5 generation multirole fighter which was introduced in 2003 by its creators BAE Systems, Airbus Group and Alenia Aermacchi where it showed off a delta wing setup with canards and a brand new twin engine. The reason for it not to be a generation 5 fighter is the fact that it does not have stealth properties. But what it does have which it was very new with when it came is its P.I.R.A.T.E – IRST (InfraRedSearchandTrack) system. This picks up heat changes around it and can by this spot subsonic aircraft as far away as up to 100km+(The Germans say). This means that the Typhoon can still shoot its advanced IR-tracking missiles at a target, even though its enemy has stealth features.
Features of the stealth king
Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
But how does this affect the raptor? We will first go over the Raptor’s features before we draw any conclusions. The F-22 Raptor is a Stealth featuring fifth generation fighter built by Lockheed Martin and first presented by the United States’ Air Force in 1997. It has a diamond shaped wing and has a Gatling gun at the right vertical stabilizer (just like the Eurofighter) capable of shooting 100 bullets per second (!). It does not feature an IRST system but instead puts its faith in the fact that no other fighter (except for F-35) has stealth yet and therefore it only needs normal radar. It also features its unique Thrust Vectoring which gives the pilot the possibility to change the direction of the exhausts. This gives the Raptor really good turning-capabilities.
Who is really the best?
Now to the main point of this article: Is the German Eurofighter Typhoon superior to the F-22 Raptor? The topic has been widely debated; many say that the EF Typhoon would out battle the raptor any day, whilst the Americans, of course, claim the opposite. The most used argument by the Eurofighter lovers is that during the Red-flag (an American training exercise) in 2012 the EF typhoon scored a number of kills versus the Raptor. After the exercise, the media of course only showed the story from one side of the point because they obviously would sell more newspapers if the “supreme F-22” was shot down. However, this is what the pilots (of both sides) said:
“I did review the HUD footage, a lot of gunshots from the F-22’s to the Eurofighters and not a whole lot coming back” – Unnamed USAF pilot.
Whilst a German pilot named Marc Grüne said: “As soon as you get to the merge … the Typhoon doesn’t necessarily have to fear the F-22”.
There would be no point in putting too much emphasis on the pilot’s quotes, they can obviously not be trusted, but what is obvious is that the F-22 has some weaknesses in close combat. The reason for this is that the F-22 has its thrust vectoring to turn quickly and this gives it an advantage in a dogfight, but if it does not score a kill then, it is in a lot of trouble, to say the least. This comes from the fact that once the Raptor has used its thrust vectoring it has lost a lot of speed, which tremendously increases the change of the Eurofighter to score the kill.
So sure, the Eurofighter might be better than the Raptor in a dogfight, but what we should not forget is that in real battles there are not very often dogfights, practically there almost never are. This means that in a real fight it stands between the Raptor’s radar and the Typhoon’s P.I.R.A.T.E. Then we have to look at the different ranges of weapons and radars:
| Fighter: | Raptor: | Typhoon: |
| Radar/Infrared tracking range: | ~220km | ~65km(because the Raptor has heat dissipating panels) |
| Practical radar range(this means at what range the weapons are capable of hitting(still not 100%) ie. at what range the targets are well designated): | ~180km | ~50km |
| Weapon range: | ~75km | ~50km |
| Countermeasures: | Flares | Chaff(like flares but versus radar instead) |
In the table above we see that the Raptor is actually superior to a Eurofighter Typhoon in a real air-to-air battle. The 75km range of the Raptor’s Aim-120 AMRAAM missiles mean that it can choose to engage whenever it wants; even before the EF even knows there is an F-22 in the area!
To conclude this article we can say that the Raptor is still the king of the sky, even though it in dogfights has found a real competitor in the German Eurofighter Typhoon. But it also needs to be said that the EF Typhoon, a multi-role fighter almost beats the raptor, even though the Raptor was only built for one thing – Air to Air combat.
Additional Reading:
- MiG-29 Flights in Russia
- Fighter Jet Generations – the history of the fighter jet
- The end of the manned fighter jet?
Sources:
- Fulghum, D.A and M.J. Fabey. “F-22: Unseen and Lethal: Raptor Scores in Alaskan Exercise” (data collected on 2014-05-15)
- Youtube Documentary. “ASRAAM”. Science & Technology. (data collected on 2014-05-15)
- Defenceindustrydaily.com – F-22 Raptor: Capabilities and Controversies (data collected on 2014-05-15)
- Flightglobal.com – F-22 vs Eurofighter BFM in Alaska (data collected on 2014-05-15
Not sure why you keep calling it the ‘German’ Eurofighter – firstly it is a pan-European project between UK, Germany, Italy and Spain.
In build work terms the highest share is constructed in the UK.
The particular red flag exercise you mention was between the USAF and Luftwaffe and so I can understand you saying German pilots flying the Eurofighter but definitely not the ‘German’ Eurofighter.
Thanks for the remark Jason – I guess the author was referring to the operator – German Luftwaffe – not the producer.
Well, true, it was built in Britain mostly, but the primary air-frame / designers of the Typhoon were German.
The majority of the development of what became the Typhoon was done in the UK, with the BAe EAP (Experimental Aircraft Programme) being the prototype on which the Typhoon is based.
Er, no they weren’t
Er, yes. Look it up.
“The British Aerospace EAP was a technology demonstrator aircraft developed as a private venture in the 1980s and which eventually formed the basis for the Eurofighter Typhoon. ”
– Wikipedia
Not entirely true, the EF typhoon was based heavily on the EAP which featured only a few parts such as control surfaces on each wing and vertical stabilliser desgined by german companies, the majority of the aircraft was designed by BAE
It’s wrong: first definitive Typhoon layout was british. Moreover, the main contractors are UK, Germany, Italy and Spain. Italy is strongly involved in avionics,wing and bach side of the aircraft., the contirubution is not only in economics
Thanx, I was going to make the same point 🙂
Thank you Jason – I also found this odd. The natural assumption given the size of Germany’s defence budget vs the greater size of the UK’s defence budget is that the UK would have played a significant role in such a project. We’re not talking about building luxury family saloons here!
I wish people would stop saying its a German Eurofighter because it’s not, it was manufactured by several countries, Germany was supposed to build the cockpit but it needed help from the English as Germany hadn’t built fighter jets since the Second World War! Somethings never change the Germans have still got to be number one in everything, and there arrogance is still with them.
Why do you refer to “the German’s arrogance”?
I can’t say whether the authpr of the article is German (though some spelling mishaps suggest so), but even if, we’re debating one single person’s arrogance – maybe – or, more probably, simply a mistakeeveryone could possibly make.
I, as a German, stumbled immediately when I read “German aircraft”.
You’re the arrogant one, you say England when you should say UK. Pot kettle.
Typhoon or ‘Eurofighter’ is a combined European project, as the name suggests. It doesn’t really matter who designed what, as all the engineers and designers have created a wonderful aircraft. The Germans and British have always produced incredible examples of aeronautical and automotive engineering, so a combined project with other European nations should be celebrated.Whether the F22 is a better warbird: that is the privilege and conjecture of pilots.
This is old new I know but relevant to this discussion
“international AIR POWER REVIEW” – year 2006, issue 20, page 45. – ISNB: 1-880588-91-9 (casebound) or ISBN: 1473-9917.
Eurofighter a shooting star in clash with US jets
IT might be over budget and years late but the Eurofighter Typhoon has shown that it can shake off America’s best fighter plane and shoot it down.
A chance encounter over the Lake District between a Eurofighter trainer and two F-15 aircraft turned into a mock dogfight, with the British plane coming off best – much to the surprise of some in the RAF. The episode was hushed up for fear of causing US blushes. For a project 10 years late and $8bn over budget, it is a welcome piece of good news.
The ‘clash’ took place last year over Windermere when the two-seater RAF Eurofighter was ‘bounced’ from behind by the two F-15E fighters. The US pilots intended to pursue the supposedly hapless ‘Limey’ for several miles and lock their radars on to it for long enough so that if it had been a real dogfight the British jet would have been shot down. But much to the Americans’ surprise, the Eurofighter shook them off, outmanoeuvred them and moved into shooting positions on their tails. The British pilots themselves were almost as surprised at winning an encounter with an aircraft widely regarded as the best fighter in the world.
“more recently, there have been repeated reports that two RAF Typhoons deployed to the USA for OEU trails work have been flying against the F-22 at NAS China Lake, and have peformed better than was expected. There was little suprise that Typhoon, with its world-class agility and high off-boresight missile capability was able to dominate “Within Visual Range” flight, but the aircraft did cause a suprise by getting a radar lock on the F22 at a suprisingly long range. The F-22s cried off, claiming that they were “unstealthed” anyway, although the next day´s scheduled two vs. two BWR engagement was canceled, and “the USAF decided they didn´t want to play any more .
– When this incident was reported on a website frequented by front-line RAF aircrew a senior RAF officer urged an end to the conversation on security grounds”
Capability in wartime and a chance encounter between fighter jets are totally different. No one can argue he fact that the F-15 has been one the best fighters ever. A group of Vietnam battle tested F-4 pilots went up to 1st Tac. Fighter Wing at Langley a kicked some F-15 backside. Can an F-4 run with the F-15 ? No! I enjoyed having “F-15 Buster” on my F-4. On that day the young boys with new F-15’s were taught a lesson by experience and training. I said all that to say this, you can arm chair quarterback all you want but it is one position on the field. Men and training of the team will make the difference. Will a 2nd Lt. in a Raptor get shot down one day?………..maybe, but not if his Caption, Major, or Lt. Col. flight leader is around. It not all equipment.
F-15 Eagle has a proven record which is second to none,
A Kill ratio of about
107 confirmed kills (Declared) still rising to no loss of a single F-15, unlike most Fighters its role is much more versatile than just a interceptor, So in the modern era of the jet fighter surely at this moment in time the F-15 Eagle is the best all round fighter to date
Sir,
You are absolutely right by saying that it is the man behind the gun and not the gun that matters in a dogfight. In a recent encounter between a newly produced aircraft (JF-17) by Pakistan Aeronautical Complex shot down two Indian Air force fighters, Mig-21 and SU-30.
The newly Israel upgraded Mig-21 Bison and The SU-30 Flanker-C super maneuverable fighter jets are one of the best 4+ gen jets but got locked by multiple Pakistani jets and ultimately shot down. It proves that battle experience and proper use of technology is important, not buying super expensive jets and not be able to utilize it completely.
https://www.dawn.com/news/1466347
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-47384021/india-pakistan-footage-appears-to-show-downed-indian-jet
EF is a great fighter, no doubt – But let’s not get crazy, in nearly any conceivable encounter the F-22 will take control quickly and efficiently… hands down, no questions asked. The EF is a souped-up “Teen”; the Raptor is MUCH more than that. It has real stealth, real supercruise, real sensor fusion, and has clearly demonstrated that it can compete in a dogfight with an aircraft 1/2 its size, even without an HMDS or IRST… I wonder how many people realize how capable the Raptor really is, and how much more capability is already planned-for… It should be sobering, especially given that its first shots in a real engagement would specifically target the weaknesses in these aircraft; specifically targeting undetected from dozens of miles away using a d-linked aim-120D, or at extended short-range with an AIM-9X fired from their 6:00, after being fired at twice their own airspeed – Good luck with that, 4th-gens!
Take control? There would be no control for the raptors to take…the EF’s would already be downed by long range missals.
But please take into account the radar emissions of the raptor or f35 radar which are visible on passive radars. now you cannot get a lock without a radar so you have to turn it on and also the EF has pirate irst system which is also able to detect the nearby aircraft ir signatures from 100km so the competition is surely tough.
The Raptor is probably the most expensive fighter in the world… That for itself is a devastating aspect. But now to the core: First, there are a few aspects of aerial warfare, that cannot be negated, also not over time. For example the fact, that no matter how complex a radar system might be, there will always remain possibilities to counter it. Radar works by the emission of electro magnetic waves, the APG 77 being no magical exception. These emissions are always much stronger than the so-called background noise (naturally occuring radiation). To simplify it a bit: While normal radars usually work on one singel frequency, the Raptor´s APG 77 switches these frequencies a few thousand times a second, thus avoiding a sound, detectable signal for regular RWR´s. But as time moves on, technology does aswell. The Typhoon for example (among others) is equiped with a digital wide band RWR (as already Tornado ECRs were), that constantly scans all frequencies between ca. 7 and 13GHz and detects each single signal of the APG 77. And this, since limited to X-band, cannot escape the Praetorian´s scanning realm. The next step is to jam this system: Here, different techniques become viable:
1. DRFM jamming
2. Noise jamming
3. White noise increase
Depending on the sitaution, especially the first and second are quite promissing, especially in combination with ground bouncing…
So, although the Typhoon may not passively be as stealthy as the F22, it can indeed hold its own against an adversary with a reduced radar cross section.
The German EF did not have HMDS or IRST either. While I cannot speak about PIRATE’s abilities against an F22 if the EF had the HMDS the encounter experimented would not have even started. BTW also the EF has full sensor fusion.
Raptor 1 you are a complete muppet, the EF has moved on since 2014 when you made that ridiculous statement, the EF is better than the F22 in a dogfight, and the F22 relies on its radar as it doesn’t have IR, there has been no updates for the F22 since it was built as they are that expensive on the other hand the EF has had quite a few updates and will carry on with them and once they get this new missile the meteor up and running and all the other radar updates the Eurofighter will be a lot better fighter that will rule the skies!
those eurofighters would be tracking its cloaked movements from up to 100k away.. p.i.r.a.t.e. can track any stealth aircraft even if its traveling at supersonic . and lock its weapons on accordingly.
boom …
you realize that the F 22 also hides its infrared signature right?
The u.k. invented super cruise first found on the English Electric Lightning and the king of supercruise was concorde, basically the british gave you super cruise capability, I assuming you are infact a supercilious american. I expect you read somewhere by that russian troll that typhoon doesn’t have ‘proper’ super cruise, I can assure it does, because the British invented it!!
Do you know that this “real stealth” is now useless against the West and Russsra etc?
DUDE YOUR BEST BET IS TO CALL US AMERICANS, LIKE YOU DID IN WW1, AND LETS NOT FORGET WW2, WE HAVE THE BEST NAVY AND AIRFORCE BY FAR, SO PLS PUT IT TO REST MILITARY BY FAR #1 USA
God bless America – always, even if sometimes you are late to the party 🙂 That said, it was the Russians who won WW2 not us Brits or you Americans. I know, it sucks to have to admit that. At least we (US/The West) won the Cold War afterwards.
With a little but support from the West 😉
“As with many Allied countries in World War II, the Soviet Union received Western aircraft by Lend-Lease, mostly Bell P-39 Airacobras, Bell P-63 Kingcobras, Hawker Hurricanes, Curtiss P-40 Kittyhawks and Douglas A-20 Havocs. Soviet fliers in P-39s scored the highest individual kill totals of any ever to fly a U.S. aircraft. Two air regiments were equipped with Spitfire Mk.Vbs in early 1943 but immediately experienced unrelenting losses due to friendly fire as the British aircraft looked too much like its German nemesis, the Bf 109.[35] Lend-Lease aircraft from the U.S. and UK accounted for nearly 12% of total Soviet air power”
The Russians helped win it. Had they been fighting alone without the benefit of German forces being divided, they may or may not have won anyway, but if they would have won, it would have taken longer, and at greater cost. In reality, it was the Germans who were out best allies, due to numerous strategic blunders.
Indeed, their biggest strategic blunder was to invade Russia! 🙂
Only because we are an island, the UK could probably have held out indefinitely had the US not gotten involved militarily. And it’s fair to say Russia would have crushed Germany pretty much alone. But really it is pointless to argue about who did the most to defeat the Germans. The UK, US, and Russia (and many other countries) allied together to totally defeat Germany, as quickly as possible. For the good of humanity (of which the Germans displayed little) it had to be done. Let’s all agree on that ….
The US and British fighting in the south and western europe did a number on the Germans and made it helluva lot easier for the Russians to beat the Germans in the East. If the Germans didnt have to contend with british and american forces pushing up through italy or Cutting through France and faced Russia head on, it would’ve been a longer war, but I don’t think there would’ve a cold war. Tough to fight on two fronts 😉
Let’s not forget that if the UK had lost the Battle of Britain in 1940 the US would have kept out of the war, the Soviet Union would have been defeated. Hitler with the help of British nuclear scientists could have had the A bomb before the US. Hitler attains world domination.
The Russians won the Battle of Midway?
Yup the Soviet Union won WW2 and no one can deny that, but we helped a little bit. We also had to deal with those pesky Japanese, but that was a sideshow. They gave us hell by the way. Good brave fighters and worthy adversaries. They fuaght like tigers. Goidnight
Russia only fought 1 enemy during WW2, and that single enemy was immensely distracted in Western Europe and Africa thanks to UK/US. The Americans not only took back western Europe all the way to Berlin, but also squashed an Empire in the Pacific after a harsh blow in Hawaii.
The corrupt system in the United States of military procurement is not the best way to provide the armed forces with the best weapon systems. System builders will bribe and tell lies to get a contract. The Military will tell even bigger lies to keep their pet projects going, F22 maybe. The tax payer is the one to foot the bill for less and less for their , Dollar, Euro, Pound, Rouble, or Yen.
Please…you know nothing of what you speak. Embarrassing.
I hate to be the one to break this to you, but the US doesn’t have a monopoly on bureaucracy…
You are a fool. Learn your history before making such silly comments
@ Saul by the way
And all this is speculative nonsense guys – these are highly advanced platforms in fluid engagements, there are too many variables to say “which is better” – both are excellent systems to be proud of
I think he’s kidding
Sir,
You surely have the best military but you are just a big terrorist country that uses its military for terrorizing others. take example of IRAQ, SYRIA, AFGHANISTAN, PAKISTAN, VIETNAM and the list goes on. If we look into it more closely the terrorist activities have increased not decreased after their intervention into the matters of other countries. Please mind your businesses, leave others alone. Also have you won even a single war by yourself? You F****D up the whole Iraq and then left like a whining dog then Came the turn of Afghanistan and you are doing the same. also you tried to do this with pakistan and they gave you a bambo back in your arse. And let me predict, you are going to do this to North Korea and Iran then China and so on. But you cannot dare do This to powerful nations like China and SK. Please revise your techniques of world domination and start living like civilized being. Stop this terrorism.
I Would like to point out that the F-15E “StrikeEagle” is a air to ground attack aircraft not built for air superiority. It’s a larger platform than the F-15C. We’ll see how your beloved Typhoon stacks up against the F-35 Lightning. By the way, the Raptor is also versatile as a air to ground strike aircraft carrying a number of munitions.
P.S. A retired U.S. Air Force Veteran who spent lots of time in the U.K. I love and respect the Brits!
You do realise of course that we Brits joint developed the F35 with you guys right? BAE Systems you know the guys that made the Harrier which you guys are still flying after nearly 40 years, in your Marine close support role. Additionally we are taking delivery of F35’s as we speak so it’s no bother to us which one comes out best between the typhoon and F35 as we have both. All this trolling between two very closely linked countries that will never have to fight each other is beyond the joke and so unbelievably childish(not directed at you Ray). All you guys sitting in your arm chairs that will never have to face the wrong end of an Aim 9 have absolutely no idea at all what you are talking about. You are just blindly supporting your home nation without knowing any of the real world facts. As for the utter fucking pricks mentioning WW2 you guys make me sick. At the time of WW2 this tiny puny island had the largest Navy in the world, both of us lost hundreds of thousands of lives fighting for the very freedom that allows you to write such utter tripe. Those very same lives that you completely trivialise by writing that shit. I’m sure they are very proud of you. Save it for the enemy you know the Islamic State, the very people you enraged by killing hundreds and thousands of innocent people. Fucking Americans!!!!!!( I don’t include you in that Ray,the only American I’ve seen on here with any sense of humility)
Agreed, although I’m a little biased being American, the Eurofighter would beat the F-35 any day of the week. If the F-35 cannot beat the F-16, why would you expect it to win against the even more advanced Typhoon?
Please…the F35 is superior to both the Euro and F16.
Do you make this stuff as you go? Hence, you’re the Limey on You Tube that constantly makes the USA look inferior and always puts the UK on top.
Can you show us some proof? Because all you’re doing here is making stuff up. In other words, you’re putting a false education in the minds of people that don’t know any better. Which only creates more ignorant fools. How about some actual links from verified articles? Please stop with your ignorant trolling, kiddo.
@Graham Where do you get this stuff from? Russia Today, lol. Can you back up your claims? No offense, but I’ve seen you troll all over You Tube before with your same false logic. Where do you get this info from? Because everything about the F-22 is top secret. Nobody knows what the F-22 can really do. Except for the people who run or work on it. Yet, you seem to know everything about it? Anybody with commonsense, can see where you’re going with this. Hence, Britain is better, and the USA use to be nothing but peasants. You constanly put the USA down on everything you write on the internet and You Tube.
Rule of thumb, kiddo: Show facts and links to actual articles that show actual proof. Because in todays World, people can make up anything they want as they go.
Nevertheless, you’re starting to prove one thing Americans have know for sometime: British people suffer from an American inferiority complex!!
Please…you know nothing of what you speak. Embarrassing.
I’m sorry, but I hate liars and trolls. I wish You Tube and other sites would block your kind!! You make this crap up as you go. The UK is nothing more than a puny island with poor food, bad weather, and violent Muslims. Hence, the UK will become a Muslim Country in 25 years time. You just wait, kiddo. The USA will probably have to bomb the UK and free the rest of you from your Muslim Invaders. God help France and Holland too. I truly feel sorry for the UK, and I try not to insult British people, but people like you helps me make exceptions.
I didn’t mean to hurt your feelings, but next time please show facts and links to actual articles and sites.
Good luck with Allah and your Jhad, Limey.
nob head
LMAO
sources?
Ha, you do realize that the F-15 is 40 years old ? And in that time it has a 104 kills to 0! Besides gen 4.5 to gen 5 fighters, it rules the sky. But for s plane to be 40 years old and still be one of the most feared fighters in the world is saying something.
As far as the typhoons being better than the F-22, the ONLY way that a typhoon is going to take down a F-22 is if it can get close and that isn’t going to happen.
Typhoon locked on at 100km against a F22 last year.
Let’s say the USAF top brass where a bit concerned.
Stealth doesn’t work. It’s a gimmick.
An old Rapier missile battery tracked and locked on a B2 flying over UK on exercise for a laugh.
Again, US officials tried to dismiss it.
Why do you think the F22 is hardly ever used in combat zones.
Ive acually talked to a f22 pilot and he said theres nothing in the air today that could do what you just described..your eurofighter would be dead before it even new the f22 was there..red flag has proved that time and time again..212-0 kill ratio going against f15s..the f15s your talking about were probably old c models not the new e or se models..its a good thing were allies so we can come save you again like we did in ww2..
Actually the EF is also primarily an Air to Air fighter – not really a multi role aircraft – it has had to be adapted for that role, and doesn not perform it very well.
It’s the other way around, pal!
I seen the match up it cant keep in a turn with the f-22 so no lock could be made the f-22flying by like a fly thats I seen guns would not work so no match for f-22 sorry f-22 was out of sight alot I mean alot
I think the U.S. and Europe will not be fighting anytime soon–hopefully. So, the good news is, if they stick their heads together they can have a supreme airforce
if the uk and the us did have an air battle, the uk would get tanned by the sheer numbers of craft the americans have!
Yeah, sure, but that isn’t actually what were talking about here! That’s a bit like saying my poodle is better than your bulldog, because I have more of them??? We’re not talking numbers, or a US vs UK war, so put your 45s away, we’re just comparing two aircraft.
True – although we in the EU need to up our defence budgets. There is a little too much reliance on the Americans and I know it, rightly, irritates them.
It’s not only the Typhoon the Rafale also gave F22 a bad day and latest I heard the Gripen flown by Sweden also gave the F22 a beating. Look at the link http://theaviationist.com/2013/06/19/f-22-shot-down-by-rafale/ and http://defenseissues.wordpress.com/2014/01/11/comparing-modern-western-fighters/#more-1018 and http://ragnaroken.com/2013/04/09/the-highest-scores%EF%BB%BF-of-kills-at-red-flag-2013-nato-exercise/
It was a real scandal that Italy and other european countries are going to waste much money buying F35 fighter from the U S , even if they developed the EF , just for political reasons. This has also wasted the chances for the EF to be exported abroad: why buy the EF if the very countries that buid it buy the f35.
In the case of the UK the F-35s are primarily for use on the carriers. EF can’t take off from a carrier
>>BAE Systems, Airbus group and Alenia Aermacchi
None of the above is German.
Hi Castor,
The author was referring about a German Air Force EF – so it’s about the operator, nut the manufacturer
This analysis of Raptor vs. EF is so poorly done, it degrades into no more than opinion. The bias is inherent.
Stealth is no where near an invisibility cloak as the manufacturer would like to claim.
Long wavelength radar is adept at detecting stealth aircraft, and this is well known.
The EF has the meteor missile…the Raptor has AMRAAM.
The EF is nearly half the weight as a Raptor, and has less momentum to overcome when turning to shoot.
Both have super cruise.
The EF has lower wing loading.
With all said, therefore, the EF is more maneuverable when the aircraft merge.
Based on those points, the EF would win in an real battles
You might want to clarify this.
The RF has virtually equal thrust to weight ratio and conserves energy better on a turn than the raptor. Due the canard directional capabilities and the size of the wings compared to the aircraft
The Raptor has Thrust Vectoring for extreme turning, but the turn will bleed off energy at a fast rate and the wings are not designed to recover it quickly.
Result, in a prolonged dogfight, the Euro has the edge.
At range, the raptor has the edge. That was stated clearly by other pilots from other nations. It’s designed to dominate at range and proves itself capable at close range.
Sounds to me like we have a good mix of capabilities as allies.
Well said Joe. As ALLIES we have a great mix of fighters.. The Gripen, Rafale, Eurofighter, F22, F35 & all the American legacy fighters, along with the Tornado & Mirage are a massive deterrent to ANY aggressor of NATO!
As for the UK v US crap spouted on here, they are the strongest alleys in the world. If the partnership fell apart & they did go to war, the US’s sheer numbers would make it a very one sided event! That’s not so say us Brits have a poor army/Navy/Airforce, the size of our country & economy dictates the military spend, any war with these two nations is VERY unlikely though!
One example of the partnership is in the Gulf, a British type 45 destroyer is protecting one of the US Nimitz class carriers whilst they hammer ISIS from the air.. The two ships sensors are synced together & work as one… A big part of Red flag 15-1 was to merge the planes sensors of the F22 & Eurofighter to make the most potent air superiority pairing out there.. Apparently it was a massive success aswell. Nothing Russia or China have built have anything near the capability of these two, unless you watch/read RT, Sputnik or any other Kremlin run media outlets of course! I’m a fan of the SU35 but it isn’t as advanced & the thrust vectoring would rarely be used in combat due to the speed it bleeds.. Ask the Indians what they think of Sukhoi.. Nothing like as promised!
F22 + Eurofighter = Total dominance of the skies.
The EF does not have super cruise when carrying a full load, that is what makes the raptor unique. Also stealth is effective, if you want to track a raptor you have to track all the birds in the sky. It’s not meant to be invisible just very very hard to spot.
Sirs, don’t forget that Eurofighter is a european project (Italy and Spain are also owner of this jewel)…
The German Eurofighter is actually the worst eurofighter in service in terms of armament and electronics, wouldn’t it make more sense to compare the Raptor with the best Eurofighter?
Germany had the largest share in the total of EF. He emerged from the “Hunter 90” and was placed under Helmut Kohl in order. He was later renamed in Euro Fighter and some states were added.
the raptor is a overhyped american produckt like lot of there hardware, europe makes supreme wapons and have a a bigger army than the us…wake up burger brains…the higher they go the harder they fall
In a 2008 study (big file!), the Air Force-funded think tank RAND warned against assuming long-range missiles will work. RAND looked at 588 air-to-air shoot-downs since the 1950s and counted just 24 that occurred with the attacker firing from beyond visual range. Historically, American long-range air-to-air missiles have been 90-percent less effective than predicted, RAND asserted
quote from wired.com
http://www.wired.com/2012/07/f-22-germans/
“I can’t see the [expletive deleted] thing,” said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, exchange F-15 pilot in the 65th Aggressor Squadron. “It won’t let me put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it visually through the canopy. [Flying against the F-22] annoys the hell out of me.” this I found out though research cant get lock on f-22 sorry you see it fly through gun sights one thing getting lock is another
What’s this about the German Typhoon? Isn’t it Anglo German?, Britain designing and building a good part of it including the engines?
Eurofighters soon to be fitted with meteor missiles, these can hit targets at 100km+. This would even the playing field
translate this article: whaaaaaaa whaaaaaaaa whaaaaaa ‘merca number 1 whaaaaaa….
The F22 sucks and everybody knows it. I used to buy the manure fed to us by the government now I see through the lies…
Oh yeah?! Then how can you explain that the future Raptor can kick the snot out of the Raptor today huh? You need evidence man. The future Raptor shall be FEARED! The Raptor shall have a new targeting system that will allow the pilot to lock on to anything all around him or her. The Raptor today doesn’t have that. The Raptors are like the legendary P-51D Mustang. I wouldn’t be surprised if you weren’t American. Get some more education dude!
Meteor missile means almost nothing against a low RCS adversary. An F-22 only needs to get within a high kill probability range whilst still being undetected…. Which is probably very possible, though it’s all anecdotal without access to classified hard data.
This is all a bit of a moot argument anyway, as its unlikely these two aircraft will ever face each other in combat.
I think this article summed up what is already commonly assumed. WVR = Typhoon, BVR = Raptor. There are certainly some design limitations when creating a low RCS a/c. I don’t know if jettisoning missiles going into WVR is a real tactic though.
The U.S. only made… 189 F-22 Raptor’s? I am remembering of the top of my head, though the actual figure may be a bit lower or higher. That being said, I personally think the F-22 is the greatest aircraft in the world. It is highly advanced and capable of killing without being seen. Many foreign pilots have stated that they would dead going up against the Raptor in REAL LIFE/DEATH combat. I would too though. Why would I want to fight something I can’t see on my radar and something that could take me out at 100km. 100km!!!
You are 100% true. In fact, the US Government shall have more Raptors very soon. TAKE THAT RUSSIANS!!!!!!!!!!!!
The foreign pilots are right. The Raptor is armed to the teeth with deadly weapons and they can crush anything that gets in their way even the Russian mistakenly built Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA. That jet is just a piece of fat guy crap. Putin was wrong.
BVR engagements are how the Raptor is intended to fight so the designers put their faith in the active radar system being able to detect targets at extreme ranges beyond 150km. what they forgot or ignored was that the advantages in using ‘AESA’ would be countered in the future. While it is still true that the AN/APG-77 will eventually burn through all modern ECM, it is not likely to achieve this at ranges greater than @ 60km putting the F-22 firmly in the sights of the passive ‘IRST’ systems deployed on the latest versions of both Russian and Chinese fighters. This will enable them to either engage the Raptor at range or vector onto the F-22 and draw it into WVR where it can be beaten! For an aircraft thats sole intent is as an air superiority fighter this is a fatal flaw in the combat philosophy and reminds me of the assumption that the F-4 wouldn’t need a gun because it would destroy all its targets with ‘modern’ missiles!
As to thrust vectoring, well it is both a blessing and a curse! While it will allow for high G spectacular turns and the ability to force the gun onto target, it does this at a incremental energy cost. Basically, for increasing vectoring imputs you get an exponential loss of energy forcing the aircraft to enter a predictable dive or sustained straight and level flight to regain its speed prior to executing another manoeuvre. In other words it becomes a sitting duck while it regains its energy! You can see examples of this by looking for footage of ‘Pugachev’s Cobra’ or watching a video of an F-22 performing a tight turn! While specular the thing to watch is how the aircraft exits the manoeuvre and how long it takes to pick up speed!
The simple truth is no matter what advantage you gain from the use of technology it will be countered by the use of technology. Stealth is not the golden egg it was assumed it would be! Remember on 27 March 1999, a F-117 was tracked and shot down after Yugoslav air defense operators found they could detect F-117s with their “obsolete” Soviet radars after some modifications! And does anyone really think that the technology hasn’t moved on from there! In 2014 the Chinese unvailed its JY-26 “Skywatch-U” 3-D long-range air surveillance radar which was designed specifically from the ground up to detect F-22 and B-2 aircraft!
Stealth aircraft are no-longer “invisable” and need to be prepared and able to engage in dogfights against point defense fighters with high climb rates, low wing loadings and high energy values. If they are not designed with ACM in mind they will become the metaphoric “baby seals”! The F-22 can dogfight but not remotely dominate the airspace as the F-15 had for some time. The F-35 can’t climb, can’t turn and can’t run so it cannot afford to dogfight anything. The sole intention of a strike fighter is to fight its way to a target, destroy the designated target and fight its way home. Given the limitations of the 35, maybe it should have a ‘B’ designation and not an ‘F’!
Typhoon is an air superiority fighter primarily, in a dog fight it is unlikely to be beaten by anything.
The F22 isn’t a dog fighter, its role is to dominate from distance and not get into close proximity of an enemy, the F35 is meant do that making use of the F22’s long range targeting abilities.
I’m sure however that I read the F22 does lose its stealth when deploying weapons, something the Typhoon could use to get a shot off due to the slow deployment.
However saying that, the the Typhoon would be likely too busy dealing with the escorting F35s.
These aircraft are designed to do different things. As always the UK and US forces compliment each other, both are strengthened when working together.
I do believe the UK armed forces are better at making do than the US forces, we can do more with less, but that’s through decades of necessity more than anything.
We can be as tactical etc as we want, the US will always have the numbers to defeat us, so its a good job we’re friends really. 🙂
Did you read the article? The F-22 has 50% better radar and kill range. In other words, the Eurofighter can only see what its radar will let it see. Radar Range & Killzone of Eurofighter:
Radar/Infrared tracking range: 65km… missile range: 50km.
Radar Range & Killzone of F-22:
Radar/Infrared tracking range: ~220km… Missile Range: 65km.
Simple math, kiddo. In other words, the Eurofighter is already being tracked at 220km & at 65km it’s being fired at, lol.
Commonsense, kiddo. Because math is the universal language.
The US Marines make due with surplus junk. Yet, they don’t cry about it. The Eurofighter isn’t the best dogfighter in the World. Because the F-22 and the Eurofighter have never fought in a dogfight nor has a Russian T50 Pak. You’re just like the other Limey Brits. Show facts and logic before you make your claim. Otherwise, people will not take you as being serious and you just become another internet troll. Red flag meant nothing. Do you know why? Because the F-22 was handicapped and it couldn’t use its full radar. The BBC and Guardin even admitted to that. Also, who Dogfights anymore? Are you another British limey stuck in WW2? Or are you this new wave of British Muslim who hates everything else. Either way, the UK is becoming another Muslim majority.
Common man that’s ridicilous…. A really horrible way to treat was is supposed to be your biggest Ally…. I have alot of respect for Americans but you make me feel like we are hated over there…
Muslim’s only make up 3% of the over all British population??? The U.S probably has a higher rate of muslim’s so what???
Last post was rushed, sounds like I’m stating fact when its merely opinion badly written lol.
Both aircraft are fantastic and should be praised for their abilities, no aircraft is infallible.
Did you read the article? The F-22 has 50% better radar and kill range. In other words, the Eurofighter can only see what its radar will let it see. Radar Range & Killzone of Eurofighter:
Radar/Infrared tracking range: 65km… missile range: 50km.
Radar Range & Killzone of F-22:
Radar/Infrared tracking range: ~220km… Missile Range: 65km.
Simple math, kiddo. In other words, the Eurofighter is already being tracked at 220km & at 65km it’s being fired at, lol.
Commonsense, kiddo. Because math is the universal language.
The F-22 is pretty much a mini supercomputer & AEW&C. It can host: F-35s and multiply their capabilities with a wider spectrum of radar & tracking. In a dogfight, the best pilots win!! No supercomputer aircraft can override human intelligence. US Pilots, German Pilots, and British Pilots are the best trained pilots in the World.
IMHO: The Eurofighter can get around the corners quicker in a dogfight. But the F-22 has Thrust Vectoring for its quick turns and corners. IMHO, the F-22 is the best at long range kills. Whereas, the Eurofighter is an edge better in dog fights. The F-22 isn’t the best at anything!! It’s just good at everything which makes it the best in the World. The stats on the F-22 & Eurofighter prove that logic.
IMHO, I would rather have a F-22 over a Eurofighter. Because who dog fights anymore? This isn’t WW2 people!!
very true
If the F22 currently has the edge, mainly due to its long range radar and missiles, that could change as the Typhoon is about to get its own vastly improved radar and the Meteor missile which is a game changer. The Typhoon also, of course, is now becoming a true swing-role fighter, with an extremely impressive air-to-ground strike capability.
I’ve read lots and lots of nonsense in my time, but there is more on here than usual. Most of the comments keep talking up the F22 having its long range missiles as an advantage, you do realise that the RAF Eurofighter Typhoon HAS THE SAME MISSILES (AMRAAM) as the F22 don’t you ? ? And the Eurofighter Captor has a range CONSIDERABLY LONGER range than the missiles, therefore both aircraft would be engaged long before actual missile launch. Typhoon also has P.I.R.A.T.E – IRST (InfraRedSearchandTrack) which has proven in excercises v F22’s on Red Flag that it can track and angage stealth aircraft at 100+km . .
Cool, now that the Europeans have a better fighter then us Americunts, I don’t see any real reason we still need to be in NATO or anywhere near Europe, right?.. man, that place is going to be a warzone soon.
I think it will take quite some time before the F-22’s full potential can be realized. Much of its design is breaking new ground, and regardless of how advanced our tech gets, some of this is still experience-based.
The Typhoon is rapidly becoming an excellent multirole fighter that is capable, reliable, and affordable. It is an outstanding air superiority fighter, and it has increasingly improved ground attack and surveillance capabilities. It is becoming what the F-35 is envisioned to be, but will likely never become. I honestly wish my government would have considered the Typhoon as it would have saved all of us a lot of tax dollars wasted on the F-35 nightmare.
While the F-22 designed placed heavy emphasis on air superiority, I think it will progressively become more of a multirole fighter. The B-2 was made to drop nukes, but since being re-tasked primarily with a conventional role it has excelled as the premier bomber, and it has proven the value of stealth technology. A capable stealth fighter is certainly a huge advantage for first strike capability. As the F-22’s ground attack capabilities grow, it will become an increasingly valuable component, IMHO.
So basically what we are saying is regardless of the jet if the radar and missiles are top notch your dead. You could be flying a prius but if you can hit the enemy at a distance your ok.
From comments on here and war history online I have to agree that so.each American comments seem to come across that we are hated over there? Fair enough 200 years ago we fucked you in the ass like the rest of the planet. But come on times have changed and I don’t see why everything has to turn into a dick measuring contest! We’re practically family.
I heard Tom Cruise was the pilot of the Typhoons……………….Enoughsaid
This article is really full of flaws and there are much more things to consider when comparing these two fighter aircraft.
1st.: The Typhoon is an European multinational project and the Typhoons flown by different countries have very different weapons systems on board. Especially the Bitish and German versions differ very much, because they employ completely different weapons.
2nd. : The German version of the Typhoon DOES NOT employ the so called P.I.R.A.T.E – IRST system at all!
The british and french Typhoons do, but not the German versions.
The German Luftwaffe opted for a different InfraRed Search and Tracking system.
They employ the so called ” IRIS-T ” Missile instead. And that system employs the infrared imaging and targeting system and sensors of the carried missiles. (thats why you won’t find this little infra red camera/sensor “bubble” thing stick out at the front by the cockpit of the German typhoon versions.
So all in all it may be slightly confusing, but different countries Typhoons employ different infrared search and track systems and use completely different types of short and long range missiles.
3rd.: The NATO exercises (especially the often mentioned Red Flag maneuver with the famous “Raptor Salad” quote) naturally have rules where missiles aren’t actually fired but are instead just simulated to be fired. And since it is assumed that simulated missile shots always hit and have a 100% kill ratio, the entire training event becomes a target lock competition. It’s absolutely natural and plausible and practical to exercise air combat this way, but of course all these practice mock combats naturally differ from real war combat situations. And when comparing the F-22 with the Typhoon and looking at the results of the NATO exercises you need to keep in mind that both planes rely on completely different survivalstrategies in combat.
The F-22 relies on it’s stealth capabilities and relies on firing missiles at opponents before being detected and localized itself. The Eurofighter Typhoons on the otehr hand rely on extremely sophisticated radar and infra fed sensor jamming and distraction technologies. They rely on technological tricks like projecting multiple targets, jamming radar signals blinding infra red sensors and so on. now this is important to keep in mind, because most of all these Technologies vital for the Typhoons survival strategies only come into effect after a missile has been fired at the Typhoon.
So in the NATO exercise szenarios the Typhoons entire survival strategy is rendered rather obsolete, because a successful missile lock already scores as a kill in these exercises. But in real war combat a fired missile is not guarateed to really result in a successfull kill, especially not when fired at a plane with such a large and sophisticated arsenal of missile evasion and countermeasures like the Typhoons have on board.
4th:
The F-22 Raptor currently still has one very major limitation to it’s combat effectiveness.
– Due to cost cut measures it currently still lacks a long range IRST system which allows it to detect and target opponents without using it’s own radar to detect enemy planes.
Now the main problem with using the on board radar to detect enemy aircraft is, that it counterfeits the fighters stealth strategy. A minimized effective Radar Cross Section to avoid detection becomes partially obsolete when flying around with a strong actively sending radar emitting source.
It’s basically the same kind of effect as when a regular soldier in the battlefield dresses up in camouflage to avoid being seen when fighting at night while at the same time using a bright flashlight to look out for enemies.
In that case the soldier himself may not be seen, but his flashlight certainly will give away his position and make him an extremely easy target.
A stealth fighter using an active on board radar to detect enemy aircraft naturally does a very simmilar thing as the example of a soldier using a flashlight at night trying to spot enemy soldiers.
Radar sensors of course work a little different to human eyes spotting flashlights at night though. But especially the German Typhoons have very spophisticated missile and radar warning devices that even allow the Typhoon to eploy these defensive systems for targeting enemy aircraft and firing it’s IRIS-T missiles even at extremely high off boresight angles in combat.
One more comment about the IRIS-T missiles the German Typhoons carry:
Those missiles can be fired in a so called “LOAL” (Lock on after Launch) mode. And that can also be done at extremely high Off boresight angles. And unlike many people seem to believe, it’s not even necessary for the piliot to have a “HMD” (Hemet Mounted Display) because the Typhoon has a voice control system, that allows the pilot to fire weapons just by saying the firing command our loud. (So effectiovely he doesn’t even necessarily need to be able to see the enemy himself to be able to fire at it. )
When fired in “LOAL” (Lock On After Launch mode), the IRIS-T missile gets the necessary target information via datalink and automatically locks onto it’s infrared sensors later after launch as soon as it is able to detect and track the target itself.
And the necessary target information for firing the missile in LOAL mode can practically come from nearly any possible source. This can be data from the Typhoons own defence and missile waring systems and any of it’s on board sensors, but the information can also come from other aircraft like AWACS or drones or just as well from ground stationed radar systems and so on.
Especially the newest available passive Radar technology based on the analysis of echoes from radio, cellphone signals and echoes sources are fully capable of detecting stealth aircraft even without actively emmitting any signals themselves.
And not only the Typhoon, but most really modern fighter jets with the necessary datalink communication systems on board can fire missiles at enemy targets even when they can not see or detect them with their own on board sensors.
All of the commits sounded good, However we all know that there is only one way to find out. Head to Head combat!!!!
There seems to be an awful lot of I’ll informed comments on this blog
Firstly since when did the french operate the typhoon, didn’t they pull out of the joint project which became the eurofighter in the eighties and developed the rafale? ??
Secondly the heavy lifting early on for the f35 was done by bae systems in the nineties (can’t remember the name of the project, but the scale model is still at one of the bae sites in the UK) hence our tier1 status at a partner on the project.
Thirdly the most advanced typhoons in service are operated by the raf and use the most advanced pirate system, dass, towed capitalisingdecoy (not used by other operators I believe)
I’m not bigging up the typhoon or dissing the f22 but as both have exceptional capabilities and both have certain advantages which would even the odds should they come c up against each other. However the biggest obstacle for the aircraft operating together has been overlooked which is the lack of link16 in the f22 and drastically reduces is capabilities.
And other 4th generation aircraft
Well..they are two very good fighter jets but in a war they will surely end up working together againts Su-27 ,Migs , J-10. Raptor is more like an ”sniper” jet fighter made to engage other jets from a far F-15 is a dogfigther.Soo Typhoon vs F-15 for dogfigthing
We said that the days of dog fight were over once before and it proved horribly wrong.
Days of dog fighting are still here.
When so called stealth uses radar it loses its stealth.
Passive radar if it works only works within enhanced visual range. That is 12 miles with optics for the Typhoon and the SU-35 Super Flanker.
Missile jamming on the part of the Russians especially makes it difficult to assure a long range kill. And their are no super long range Phoenix missiles anymore. Nor could there since they cannot be carried by stealth. If they could there would be no stealth.
In addition Jets like the Super Flanker rely on Infra Red for which Stealth is useless.
A big etc., etc., etc.
You want a great American Jet. There are many. The 14 was. The 15 is as well as the 16. And the latest versions of the F-18 is probably our best.
The only reasons we make the 22 and 35 is because of congressional districts. Eliminate those horror shows and those districts lose tons of jobs.
Let us hope we never have to find out what a sham those aircraft really are. And it is a shame we had to pay for them.
Reading this article and some of the comments one could get the impression that some people awaiting the 3rd World War eagerly.
Mankind won’t ever change…
1. THE BEST FIGHTER J ET :is F-22 & YF-23 BEST fighter s planes too. they are better to is way there Computer can out do them too. agree! They are lot faster then the J-20 & J-31 & J-8 Fighter JETS made in CHINA & U.S.S.R. & INDIA how has the fastest JETS Fighters yet too. AGREE!!!
The top German Ace of WWII said, ‘He who sees first usually wins’. The F-22 will see first. …. And like all aces of WWII, he avoided dogfights, which are low yielding and very dangerous. All the aces of WWII had tactics to “see first”, ambush their opponent, and avoid dogfight.
Personally I think it took all involved to beat Germany in ww2 not only making Germany split their forces defending 2 fronts Russia had the troop numbers to take Germany but I doubt they could have done it at all if Germany could have focused on just them and another huge factor I havent seen mentioned is all the damage that the USA and British did to germanies manufacturing and transportation industries by bombing them. I have studied a lot about ww2 and because of the bombings Germany was losing as much as 60-70% of their manufacturing ability either thru them getting bombed or because of the fear of being bombed the germans spent vast amounts of labor and resources moving them into mountains or under ground. If Germany never had to contend with these issues and could have kept their manufacturing at 100% and focused solely on the Russian front it’s very likely that germany could have stalled the russian advance and probably reinvaded Russia. And likewise if not for the russian front the other allies would probably never been able to defeat Germany if they were the sole focus of all of germanies war efforts.
The f22 and eurofighter are both amazing jets but you are missing the point. Both have great abilities but lack in some. Eurofighter is decent all around and a great dog fighter but the f22 is a long range air superiority machine and is Also good at other things. But they not only won’t meet but dogfights are rare and likely won’t even happen in the future.so no need to freak out about this
in 2020: the german EF..yes.! “german” because the new captor-E radar was made in germany is the best aesa radar in the world, it can detect F-22
Hopelessly out of date. The Meteor missile has a range well in excess of 100km in level flight. The AIM-120D only has that range fired high against a low target. IRST only works to 65km on the Typhoon because of heat dissipation panels on the Raptor? Do you know any physics? The heat dissipation by definition will give off IR. All that has been done is shifting the IR from about 3ooo microns to 10000 – slap bang at the sweet spot of the longer wavelength sensor.
Fast jets exhume vast amounts of hot gas. That is not stealthy. The E.F. Typhoon would be deployed in greater numbers as to the cost and production capabilities. Do you think the U.S. can produce large numbers of F22’s in a real emergency?
Imagine the straights of Taiwan. Shere numbers of “lesser” fighters will break through the screen of F22’s and down AWACS and RC’s.
Game over.